Just a comment

The last guy I was seeing - my heart is still bruised, but no longer broken - had met a woman, and as they were talking she told him that she found it easy to manipulate men but wished for a man to take control. So of course he told her she was submissive and another woman was converted to the cause.

But it got me thinking, and as I'm corresponding with the drizzle of men who've responded to my various postings, I do find that some are very easy to manipulate. Not that I do it on purpose, it's more like flirting, but it's just easy to tell what they want to hear to bring them back for more. And, in fact, I don't like it. Or rather, I like it but it doesn't make the man attractive to me. I like it when they bring me back for more. And, interestingly, I know when they're doing it, it's not a secret, and I still like it. Maybe I like to be hungry?

Anyway, just a comment.

HUman nature. We always want what we cannot have. Once we have it, we no longer want it.

There is probably a good evolutionary biology explanation for it but I am too drunk to think of it now. And that shows how drunk I am... I can usually think of one even when half unconscious... :)

[QUOTE=fetishdj;749666]HUman nature. We always want what we cannot have. Once we have it, we no longer want it.QUOTE]

Well, maybe, but I'm not sure you ever really "have it" - at least, I haven't so as to drive me away. Perhaps it's not hunger after all. Just not being in control. Surprise!

LOL. Well, there has to be an underlying reason for it... I do know that once you are satisfied all interest fades... It may be control on a psychological level but there would be a hormonal/physiological reason underlying it.

wow, for being as drunk as you said you're still pretty coherent. Or at least that's what it sounds to me. ;)

Damn. Coherence is for losers... :) It actually takes a lot for me to stop making sense. I fall over long before that... :)

LOL.

Welcome to the ever present game of give or take between dominants and submissives.

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Originally Posted by rachel06

The last guy I was seeing - my heart is still bruised, but no longer broken - had met a woman, and as they were talking she told him that she found it easy to manipulate men but wished for a man to take control. So of course he told her she was submissive and another woman was converted to the cause.

But it got me thinking, and as I'm corresponding with the drizzle of men who've responded to my various postings, I do find that some are very easy to manipulate. Not that I do it on purpose, it's more like flirting, but it's just easy to tell what they want to hear to bring them back for more. And, in fact, I don't like it. Or rather, I like it but it doesn't make the man attractive to me. I like it when they bring me back for more. And, interestingly, I know when they're doing it, it's not a secret, and I still like it. Maybe I like to be hungry?

Anyway, just a comment.

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I was always the same, rachel. Controlling, manipulating - even when it wasn't intentional. (Maybe a by-product of being raised by a Southern mom...man-management is bred into us!)

For myself, I have a very deep need to not be in control. To not be calling the shots, to not be running the show. I was told, in a very short space of time, by two different Doms, that I need to be controlled. They barely knew me, but saw that in me. And when each of them said it, something inside me said "Yes."

I know when He is doing it. But, I need it. I'm incredibly grateful for it. I willingly let go, willingly submit, willingly relinquish control. And in those moments, I am more 'me', more happy, more at peace, than I am in any other aspect of my life.

I like being hungry too. ;)

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But it got me thinking, and as I'm corresponding with the drizzle of men who've responded to my various postings, I do find that some are very easy to manipulate. Not that I do it on purpose, it's more like flirting, but it's just easy to tell what they want to hear to bring them back for more. And, in fact, I don't like it. Or rather, I like it but it doesn't make the man attractive to me. I like it when they bring me back for more. And, interestingly, I know when they're doing it, it's not a secret, and I still like it. Maybe I like to be hungry?

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Flirting? Never a problem.
Manipulating, even 'accidentally'? In theory, doesn't seem to be good sub practice, But I'll bet it's a common sub thing that we will push and pull a little, getting the measure of the dom, seeing how much he'll take before he imposes his control.
But that 'telling them what they want to hear' strikes a chord. Do you think there might be a danger of a sub giving too eagerly what she perceives the dom wants (seemingly being a 'good sub') and him so readily accepting this that he actually gains a false impression of who he's working with and what she really needs? Can a sub sometimes actually give too much?

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

But that 'telling them what they want to hear' strikes a chord. Do you think there might be a danger of a sub giving too eagerly what she perceives the dom wants (seemingly being a 'good sub') and him so readily accepting this that he actually gains a false impression of who he's working with and what she really needs? Can a sub sometimes actually give too much?

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OK, Pearlgem, now that you bring this up. . . . The Heartbreak Guy was really into authenticity and not "playing" - so, OK, possibly he was not as authentic as he thought he was, but never mind. In any event, I spent a fair amount of time thinking about previous interactions that I'd had and when they felt authentic and when they didn't.

So maybe what's going on here is saying something that I might plausibly be feeling, and if I were feeling it then the shoe would be on the other foot, control-wise, so to speak. But in fact, I'm not really feeling it, I'm just saying it because it's expected and appropriate to the situation - not lying, I think all flirting is a little like that. But it leads to a certain feeling of ironic detachment on my part. And, now that I think of it, I feel this way when flirting in a vanilla context too. It just moves me a step back from the interaction and I'm observing as well as participating.

And, I might add, if I really WERE feeling whatever I'm saying, I wouldn't be saying it so early in the relationship - I'd keep it to myself. Flirting is a little like that too - saying somewhat intimate things just a little too quickly. Anyway, I don't mean to imply that I'm doing some Machiavellian plotting or anything. It's just, some men pretty much signal what they want to hear. How can you not say it?

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It's just, some men pretty much signal what they want to hear. How can you not say it?

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It's funny, Rachel, when I replied to your post I was really talking about myself, but you felt I'd hit a nerve with you. Which is gratifying, but I was wondering how I managed to be so clever and insightful!

Being personal again - you'd think your above statement would illustrate the ideal Dom/sub dynamic - Dom signals desire, sub gives him what he desires. But I take your point about flirting. It can be a game that distances the parties involved with premature intimacy which is not authentically gained (although I personally don't quite see it this way - flirting makes me feel alive and connected in a zingy way with a man.)

So, what's the problem with a sub just giving a Dom what he expects? Subs want to do this. Except if you see this as analogous to flirting there's a danger it's a false response which can actually mean that the Dom doesn't really get to know you, and you give yourself superficially in a bit of a void. Personally, I have found a tendency in myself to 'give the Dom what he wants' but it's not always an authentic response from me. I do it to be pleasing but he supposes I gain as much from it as he does. I don't always mind - that's subbing, right? - but I do feel a Dom should know you authentically, base his decisions on real knowledge of you, wisely seeing beyond your desire just to please him.

So, either you find a Dom that understands enough to get proper feedback from you for his own sake as much as yours, and/or, as a sub, you make sure your Dom knows you properly by being honest and speaking up.

Personally I never 'Sir' any Doms on here because I am aware of how easy it is to fall into that trap of sub-like acquiescence that means the Dom actually hasn't a clue who he's really speaking to.

But I like to flirt, which is, I find, a vanilla activity that translates well into the BDSM world.

[QUOTE=Pearlgem;749947]So, what's the problem with a sub just giving a Dom what he expects? Subs want to do this. Except if you see this as analogous to flirting there's a danger it's a false response which can actually mean that the Dom doesn't really get to know you, and you give yourself superficially in a bit of a void. Personally, I have found a tendency in myself to 'give the Dom what he wants' but it's not always an authentic response from me. I do it to be pleasing but he supposes I gain as much from it as he does. I don't always mind - that's subbing, right? - but I do feel a Dom should know you authentically, base his decisions on real knowledge of you, wisely seeing beyond your desire just to please him.

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Personally I never 'Sir' any Doms on here because I am aware of how easy it is to fall into that trap of sub-like acquiescence that means the Dom actually hasn't a clue who he's really speaking to.QUOTE]

Oh, Pearlgem, so much of what you say speaks to me. Here's an example, and probably it shows what a dumb bunny I am. When I started with Heartbreak Guy, I'd been on this site for a while trying to figure some things out, and I'd been with a few other guys briefly, but I'd never tried to establish an ongoing D/s relationship. And as I mentioned, he was very into authenticity and tended to believe that only he had it and that everyone else was posing. So I stepped into this bubble with him where some of the most common D/s interactions were invested with tremendous weight because they were special just for us. And really, I was a virgin. And every task that he gave me, I agonized over, because I wanted it to be from the heart. So something like using a lower case for myself, and an upper case for him, was a really big deal, because I'd always sort of chuckled at P/people W/who W/write L/like T/this. And I only started doing it when I really felt in my heart that when I used that convention, I was symbolically sitting at his feet.

OK, there was a lot of stuff like that.

But you can never step in the same river twice. I'm not saying that I'm totally cynical and callous and that this stuff is meaningless, but it's just not as weighty as it was. When Scary Cold Guy got in touch with me with his touchingly straightforward proposition, i wrote Him back like this just for fun and because i knew He would like it. Easy, right? What had been a declaration as meaningful to me as wearing a collar became a fun way to shorthand that I'd like to play.

And that's fine. But it goes back to giving the Dom what he wants and who's really in control when you do.

Scary Cold Guy also wanted me to call him Sir. Now, I don't want to offend anyone and I understand why some people like titles. For myself, I like names better. I can call anyone by a title, but I can only call you by your name, and there's something so sexy and submissive to me in turning an ordinary name into a title just by investing it with weight. And I told Scary Cold Guy that, but I also told him that I'd Sir him if he wanted - which I wouldn't have done with Heartbreak Guy. Not just to play. So for that afternoon I called him Sir, and he smiled every time because he knew I was just humoring him.

IMHO it would have been more submissive to keep calling him by his name, which used to fall from my lips in respectful agony.

(Possibly I'm off topic here, but then, it's my thread.)

Still with you, Rachel. Some acts, as a submissive, strike you as especially meaningful and significant, helpful to your submission, and others mean less to you but you do them to please. But this is largely what subs do, in my opinion, and it's all okay so far. The very desire to please often invests the act with appeal and so the fluid dance continues.

But, I suspect this dynamic can go too far. You can dislike something but still be very engaged with it - humiliation and punishment spring to mind. But disengagement is something more difficult altogether. It's like the difference between obedience and submission. I don't know it others would agree with my definition, but I've always felt that obedience is to do with the outward manifestation of acquiescence and submission is from the heart. God save me from too much 'mere' obedience.
So,when subs on here claim to be feisty and not doormats (which they all naturally do), actually it needs to be true. Don't be merely obedient - hold out a little and make sure your Dom knows enough about you to lead you to real submission!

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Originally Posted by Pearlgem

Still with you, Rachel. Some acts, as a submissive, strike you as especially meaningful and significant, helpful to your submission, and others mean less to you but you do them to please. . . .

But, I suspect this dynamic can go too far. . . . It's like the difference between obedience and submission. I don't know it others would agree with my definition, but I've always felt that obedience is to do with the outward manifestation of acquiescence and submission is from the heart.

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Yes, doing something that does NOT speak to me because it's important to the other person can be tremendously meaningful to me. I think I'm seeing obedience a little bit differently, though. To me, the very act of obeying can be very meaningful. If I only participate insofar as an action resonates with me, then the interaction is less about submission than about mutual gratification. Participating despite the fact that something DOESN'T resonate with me invests the action with a certain kind of surrender.

But, not to get too fine-grained here, then it's not the act itself that has the significance - the act is meaningless. It's the obedience, the fact of wrestling with and twisting and reshaping the content of my submissive intuitions, that has the significance. So there's still a very real and meaningful event occurring.

Obviously it just comes down to the motivation. I can do something because it's clearly a submissive act that resonates with me, or I can behave out of trust or obedience or respect, but I can also perform the same actions just for fun, or as an indulgence to the other person. It's the last category that makes me feel, well, ironic, or inauthentic, or detached, but it certainly also makes me feel much more in control.

We're getting a lot of mileage out of this one, eh Rachel?

Some categories of act:

*You do something your Dom wants but you yearn to do it anyway. So you'll be obedient, willing, submissive and, presumably, gratified. It's lovely but there is limited long-term challenge to your submission here.

You do it because you're expected to but it takes only easy obedience and little heart-tugging submission on your part. Too many of these and you wonder about the value of your relationship.

*You do it because you're expected to do it, it doesn't appeal to you per se but you're happy to do it to please the other person. Obedience is taken for granted but the submission is more valuable then, I think.

*You find something difficult and challenging to do and you are not merely obedient about it but willing and surrendered. That's when submission is a real gift, in my opinion. That willingness is not something the Dom can take from you. He can only set up the conditions in which this willingness will be found for him. It takes strength, to give all in the right spirit. This is what I look for at the heart of my relationship.