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Sirs/Masters/Dommes if you knew there was something there was something that your sub/slave really badly didnt want to do something physical.......... would you make them do it? Maybe you found what it was they hated by accident or you simply asked. sub/slaves has your Sir/Master/Domme ever asked you directly what you didnt want to do, and when he/she found out, made you do it? If you are asked, you cant lie or avoid the question right?
It's really not about the dom making you do it... It's really about whether you will accede to the request/demand.
And that depends a lot on how you rate the activity.
A Hard Limit (whether you realized it initially or never thought of it until it was mentioned) no, you shouldn't have to do it... but that also depends on your negotiated agreements. Some say a slave has no limits. (Not me, but some do.)
We have a limits and likes questionaire in one of the threads... and you might come across something that you've never done, never thought about, have no real interest in, but might answer "Only if my Dom really wanted it."
The line between these two is a fine one... and may even move. Do it once and it's a limit forever after... v. It's a limit... but gosh, my dom really really wants this of me (and you just love pleasing him/her more than you think you hate this....)
In my opinion, there is no advice that can be given about this that does not require you and your dom resolve this between yourselves.
We can't tell you yea or nay (unless it's patently illegal or life-threatening.) And even then... the most risky of acts can be mitigated with the proper precautions. (If someone asked me to jump from a plane or go base-jumping, it just wouldn't happen, yet people do it everyday.)
In short, you don't have to do anything you do not consent to, either on a per activity basis, or a blanket giving over of your consent to your dom (let's for the sake of argument call it a collar where at the time you agree to do anything you are told).
Regards,
Arch
And lets not forget that being collared can also be "conditional".
To be frank:
If you are adamantly against the treatment that you are recieving at your partner's hands, (especially if its not safe, sane or consensual) you have a responsibility to yourself as a human being to stand up and do somthing about it, pet, sub, slave or otherwise.
A wise and understanding dominant shouldn't have any problem with that and you should never fear of comunicating such conditions.
(In fact one would think that he or she should have perhaps insisted upon knowing what your limits were in some way before entering into any relationship with you to begin with)
I shall pray that if this is a situation between you and your dominant, that it is resolved honorabely and in a timely and harmonious manner.
In all relationships I have been in, there has always been an almost unspoken clause on any command - only if you think it is safe. This is mainly because, in online LD relationships a Domme cannot be there in person to assess the risk of any activity (they can know more or less what might be safe for them in thier situation but not necessarily if that same thing is safe for the sub) and obviously don't want to risk safety of the sub. And this does carry over to r/l in a sense, though in this case there is more of an element of trust as the Domme is there to monitor the situation and so it depends more on how much you trust the Domme...
Consent is all. There is no legal restriction on you that forces you to submit, only your devotion and trust of the Dom/me and your acceptance of the rules of the lifestyle. You are responsible for your own safety and if a Dom/me looks like they are stepping over the line with regards to safety, you have a right to talk to them about this and maybe renegotiate. Situations change all the time - your health may get worse, meaning some activities are no longer safe, for example. In these cases, a Dom/me needs to adapt to that and learn to keep the negotiation process open all the time - even if you are a 'slave' who has no hard limits.
Following on from that thought... hard limits...
A slave (who therefore may not be allowed to have any hard limits under the definition some use) has a health problem that precludes certain activities... do these activities now count as 'hard limits' or are they kept as 'things the Dom/me could do, because the slave has no hard limits, but will not do out of respect for the slave's state of health'?
I think different dom/mes have different styles- mostly related to our personal kinks. Being able to make someone do something, is a bigger deal (bigger turn on) to some dom/mes than others. For instance, full bondage is a bigger deal to some dom/mes, "I can make you not move!", where as the expectation that the sub will not move, will just kneel as ordered, is more fulfilling to others.
But if I try to imagine a scenario were one person really just makes someone else do something, just because they expect submission, period- that just sounds like bullying to me. Its a fine line.
Your OP was pretty vague, so I don't know how your situation fits in to this continuum. I hope, as other people have mentioned, that first and foremost you demand that your rights for safety and consent are met. I also hope that you have entered into a relationship that includes trust and respect on both of your parts. If you have chosen to be in a different kind of relationship, then you might have to accept orders and tasks that are very unpleasant for you, or leave the relationship.
Only a fool builds a house and then tears it down the next day.Quote:
Originally Posted by fetishdj
Only a fool plants a garden and lets it lay fallow or go to waste.
So too is it between masters and slaves.
as a slave i dont think its my place to want, or not want. I simply exist for my master to use my body as he chooses, because i am his. i just simply cannot have my own will. I was broken in very well, and would never be arrogant enough to think i have a choice that is my own. It is his.
Everyone makes choices.
Exactly Denuseri, everyone makes choices!
I obey my Master in all things (well I always try my very best) but I do have hard limits, not many but I do have them. They were spoken about and agreed on!
If he would break them it would be a break of trust and I would walk.
All right... SERIOUSLY? I dunno... I read this thread & I say "is this serious?"
You (not OP, a generalized "you") are a grown adult. As denuseri noted, you make a CHOICE every time you do/don't do something. Anything other than "you are an adult, you make the choice" is just psychobabble or "lifestyle babble"--which, don't get me wrong, is fun to listen to. But it's really just "justification" or "rationalizing" your choice.
Whether you are a Dom or a sub or a whatever you wish to call yourself (let's not get into a label war), you are responsible for your choices. Don't lay this at the feet of your partner & say "oh, it's their choice, I signed my rights over to them." What a crock of crap--you have the opportunity ALWAYS to make your own choices. Now, those people who say "I am his slave... I make no choices." WRONG. You make the choice to MAKE no choice--you defer to your Dominant--but that isn't "no choice"--that's MAKING a choice, though perhaps it isn't a choice that has a direct resulting action--it's a choice to give someone else the decision making power... but a choice nonetheless.
Look, here's my point. I think it's getting to the point in Lifestyle where too many people are making excuses for poor decisions/choices & behavior because they say "oh it was my Dominant's fault" or "oh, but I trusted him." You are just as much of an adult as he is!! YOU make the choice!! And on the other side, Doms need to empower the submissives/slaves/whatever to feel comfortable to speak up & communicate about things they aren't comfortable with.
Sure, negotiation is good, and yes, limits should be discussed. But communication shouldn't cease simply because a limits list has been filled out, or you had "the talk." Communication is ongoing. In good relationships, you will find the D & s communicate constantly... before/during/after scenes, during the normal day... there is a constant flow of information & feedback between the couple. Neither can read the other's mind, and neither should be expected to. On the same token, both are responsible for their own actions & choices-- what you decide to do is up to you.
If you don't want to do something... for shit's sake... don't do it! If it's something minor, you might consider that if it would make your Dom really happy, you might want to just give it a try. If it's major, the answer is: "Thank you for the opportunity, Sir, but no." The word no is a powerful word more people should try out.
There is a difference between being disrepectful & being a doormat.
From reading this thread, I think all bar one post was very serious, and illustrated valid points.
I think people end up in very different scenario's, while I agree entirely everything is a choice, I think it is perfectly reasonable for these choices to be outlined at the start of a relationship, before a collaring. Having said this however the vast majority here practise safe words, giving the sub that element of choice as long as that safe word is respected by the dominant.
Personally I think the OP brought up a very valid point, and is actually something that a lot of subs do end up doing what they are told because they don't know they have a choice.
Without some limits it just becomes an abusive or manipulative relationship, does it not?
That's a totally different question.Quote:
Originally Posted by crimson88
I can think of a number or scenarios where limits are irrelevent yet abuse (or even manipulation) aren't present either.
I just don't think one should enter relationships without the same types of conversations one has about limits.
Discussing limits can be seen as fast-track "getting to know you" conversations. "Slaves" who go into limit-less relationships with masters they've only just met are the ones who find themselves most often abused or manipulated... because they were seduced by the idea of being a slave.
There are always some limits. Even if it is extreme. The limit may be as extreme as "Okay but don't really KILL me or do something that could Kill me". That is a limit, albeit an extreme and assumed limit. You're talking about assumed limits such as are you into blood play, etc. I mean there are people out there who don't have these assumed limits. And we must all be aware. Without wants, choices or limits the sub just becomes a robot or doll.
Ive allways found that there are people out there who like to "say" they have no limits, (some even delude themselves into believing it too) but when actually put to any kind of real life test it turns out they have loads and loads of limits afterall.
And a damned good thing, too.
The fantasy of no limits is an interesting one. Often newbies try to use it to convince a Dom/me to accept them but more often than not a sensible Dom/me realises that there is no such thing as no limits and so avoids these people.
I agree that many seem to not realise that there is a massive difference between fantasy and reality. I used to think that my endurance for nipple clamps was quite good - when I put them on myself I could stand the pain for a good long while, clearly I was some superhuman pain endurance machine... then I found myself tied to a bondage bed and clamped and the agony was far far worse than anything I had endured before. It may have been different strength clamps but I think a lot of it was also the fact that I had no control - I couldn't stop the pain when it got too bad by taking off the clamps. It also felt like I had them on for an age - far longer than I had ever endured them - but in the discussion afterwards I found that it had in fact been no time at all... perceptions change when you are in a more realistic situation and 'practise' may be close to the real thing but it never the real thing... as Pratchett mentions in Thief of Time, one thing you always forget to include in emergency drills is the damn emergency.
as a slave i feel that if i am asked or told to do something and i have the ability to do so even i dont like it i should because Master has asked it of me however the catch to that is that you should never give control of your self over to someone that would ask you to do something that is something you are so fiercly against.
I would still do it to them
Put simply, the reason most dominants end up being single without a sub, is because they would force things on the sub that they did not want to do :)
As a human being you always have rights, and to me the biggest right of a sub (or slave) is the right of consent. You choose to submit yourself to your dom, and to me a good dom is honored by the gift of your submission, and would not want to threaten that by doing something that might make you question whether you want to do this anymore. Of course there are hard limits. Everyone has hard limits. You need to be able to talk to your Master about what they are and ask them if they will respect that. They should be honest with you whether they will respect it. And then based on their answer, you need to decide if this relationship is right for you.
I think it all depends on your general happiness. If you're happy serving your Master and are happy being their slave, then suffering through things to please them is fine (and can make you feel good when you know you've succeeded in pleasing them). But if you find yourself generally miserable because most of the time you're doing things you don't want, then maybe you have a mismatch and need to find a different Master.
For myself, if I find a sub truly resisting and not wanting something, I'm interested as to why they are refusing. Do they just feel embarrassed? Then of course I will make them do it. Do they truly feel frightened for their safety? Then let's find a safer way to accomplish it. Does the activity cause them pain "bad" pain as opposed to "good" pain? Then I would never push it. Is there something that I don't know? Then my sub is lying to me and we have trust issues, and that needs to be immediately resolved (I am HUGE on my subs not keeping secrets; they may not have thoughts or feelings I don't know about).
Not that I disagree with the basis of your comments, but will once again cry out against the idea that submission is a gift.
The very word, imo, contradicts the concept of consent. You give a gift, it's given and can't be taken back.
D/s is an exchange. Submission in exchange for dominion. Contracted (verbally or otherwise) until consent is withdrawn or power is returned.
Take it a step further... a gift can't easily be refused. To class submission as a gift implies the dominant has no say in the matter... and if so, there can be no dominion.
And lastly, the reason I so object to the words is that it misleads inexperienced submissives into bad relationships to inexperienced doms who take gifts for granted, discarding them when they grow tired or bored.
Those who enter relationships in a more enlightened manner, those who understand that there are responisbilities on both parties, and that an exchange is occuring, having discussed expectations on both sides, are far likelier to have lasting relationships.
Touché.
As Master and i were getting to know each other the question of likes and dislikes were brought up and what the hard limits were. Fortunately O/our likes and dislikes and hard limits matched, so there never has been a problem about doing anything that i don't like. We are always communicating and always talk at length if there is something new that either of U/us wants to try. I always try to please Master, one or two things have been done that i don't particularly like, but Master does and its His pleasure that is uppermost in my mind. As His slave 'choices' are not mine.......
slave kara
I suspect on some levels it is rare that a new dominant and submissive's resepective limits don't mostly match. Few of us are really confident that some of our deepseated fantasies won't offend or outrage... and over time, as mutual trust grows, so does our "range" of interests and fantasies.Quote:
Originally Posted by kikara
And to take it further, what also grows with mutual trust is our interest in experimenting with new things and old boundaries.
And to be clear, it's not your trust of your master that has to grow as much as your master's trust in you... that you won't walk when you learn how dark his desires really may be.
The role of the submissive is a complex one.
I repeat... the role of the submissive is a complex one.Quote:
I always try to please Master, one or two things have been done that i don't particularly like, but Master does and its His pleasure that is uppermost in my mind.
Until you decide they are yours... That's why it takes so long to really know your dominant and what's in his heart. He knows this to be true.Quote:
As His slave 'choices' are not mine.......
So while we're talking about this... understand that the role of the dominant is also exceptionally complex.
Electricity was not my favorite. I was scared to death of it. The Dominant wanted me to do it. "No no no no no. I can't." The other dominants in the room actually yelled at my Dominant and said it is a limit with her so don't force her. Now, for me I was scared to death but the truth is I did want him to force me. He heeded at that point and did it to himself only to show me that it felt good.
In another session I am completely restrained by this same man. Sitting on my bum, arms out and bound, legs spread and bound, head bound, waist bound, and naked. He pulls out a violet wand and plugs it in in front of me and says, "I know you can take this for your Master." I became sick really. I thought, f***! But he said, "I am not going to do anything you have not consented to but I want you to consider doing this for me." I said, "Okay." I was scared but I so wanted to overcome my fear.
"Okay," he said. "I will use low voltage and we will work our way up." He got it near me and turned it on and I could see the electricity. He tapped it on his arm and it made this popping noise. Eeks I thought. Then he tapped it on my inner leg near my genitals. I survived. It was almost nothing. I realized that while it wasn't my favorite, I had done something important for myself which was to face a fear. He changed the bulbs, increased and decreased the electricity and finally he used it on my privates and yep I did, in the end, tell him to crank it up.
He smiled and was proud of me for making the effort, for trusting him and for going through a hard limit. :smilie_orange1:
That is the key, right there. That line is everything.Quote:
But he said, "I am not going to do anything you have not consented to but I want you to consider doing this for me." I said, "Okay."