Animal Rights?

[Kevin100]

Not sure if I am following your reasoning here but...
You seem to be saying that a human does, or does not, have the right to torture an animal? You say it is cruel. But the question is... Does a human have the right to buy a dog in order to torture it? Does a human further have the right to torture a dog as he or she pleases for as long as he or she pleases?
Interestingly... Under most legal systems people do not have that right,

Kevin

[Kevin100]

Medical testing, done properly, is not torture, though you could argue that it is certainly torturous for the animals

I am not sure I understand this.
Torture is not torturous?

Kevin

[Thorne]

Medical testing, done properly, is not torture, though you could argue that it is certainly torturous for the animals

I am not sure I understand this.
Torture is not torturous?

Kevin

I suppose it depends on your definition of torture. Going to the dentist is painful, or torturous, for us, but it is not torture. The pain is inflicted for a specific, ultimately beneficial reason, and, of course, it's pretty much voluntary.

By the same token, though the animals don't volunteer for it, the ultimate aim of medical research is for the benefit of humanity, ideally. Therefore, scientists can offset the infliction of pain to their test animals because of the potential gains for people. And even then the reputable ones will, if at all possible without screwing up the test results, sedate the animals. And any pain inflicted is not done for sadistic or gratuitous reasons, which is what I would consider torture.

Now, using animals for cosmetic testing, to my mind, is much less justifiable. I couldn't justify in my mind that those animals have to undergo such pain just to make me look better or smell better or feel better about myself. (And believe me, in my case that would require a LOT of pain!)

The other thing you have to remember, though I don't know how much bearing it has, is that the vast majority of these test animals are living only because they are test animals. Is this right? I don't know. Again, I think you have to balance the needs of humanity with the means for meeting those needs.

[Shwenn]

and respectfully when someone apologizes its rather rude to just slap thier face all over again,

Meena didn't apologize to me. She made that "ridiculous" dig at me. Then she explianed why she didn't owe me an apology, but not to me. She made it clear she was addressing others in the comment.

there are a lot of enviromentalists and animal rights activists giving those areas of study and consern a bad name with over zealous and illegal practices, much akin to the anti-abortionist movements, its allways sad to see such violence used in the name of causes that by their own offical dogmas shouldnt condon such measures

Stipulated. I don't see how that excuses what Meena wrote. I think she owes me an apology. Trust me, I'm not holding my breath.

I abhor those people you speak of. Nothing bothers me more than when people who have the same opinion as me resort to tactics I find despicable or horrific.

On the other hand, I think it helps my cause when the people who disagree with me are petty and childish.

If a person I agree with is behaving that way, I distance myself. If I try to support them, I will end up looking very feeble and insecure about my own stance. I will look so uncertain that I feel the need to boster my numbers with any radome, fractious stranger, since my argument alone is not enough.

Ask yourself, are you the same? Do you really agree with Meena's behavior or are you not taking issue with it because she is on your side? Am I really the one here most in need of a lecture on how to comport yourself respectfully?

Think about it.

[Shwenn]

Well, chances are, if we eliminate meat from mankind's diet, millions will starve because there won't be enough vegetables to go around. There isn't enough to go around now. Instead of worrying about whether eating meat will harm the species, you should be worrying about the amount of food which is wasted instead of feeding the hungry. Although, if you aren't one of the hungry ones, why should you care?

I do not believe this is true. In fact, I feel the opposite is true. Raising cattle is not a closed system. You have to invest far more calories in the creature than you will ultimately harvest from it.

Now, I am not a strict vegetarian by any means. I eat fish I catch myself. I eat the deer and boar that my father hunts. And I do eat cattle that are properly grazed by honest to god cattle ranchers, people for whom I have a great deal of respect.

I do not eat corn-fed beef. And most beef is corn fed. I think it is a complete waste of corn.

[Thorne]

I do not believe this is true. In fact, I feel the opposite is true. Raising cattle is not a closed system. You have to invest far more calories in the creature than you will ultimately harvest from it.

Now, I am not a strict vegetarian by any means. I eat fish I catch myself. I eat the deer and boar that my father hunts. And I do eat cattle that are properly grazed by honest to god cattle ranchers, people for whom I have a great deal of respect.

I do not eat corn-fed beef. And most beef is corn fed. I think it is a complete waste of corn.

Generally, though, the cattle are eating vegetation which humans cannot eat, or cannot eat easily. But like you, I don't think feeding corn to food animals is a good idea. It raises the price of corn, for one thing, making it more difficult for the poor to afford. Even more ridiculous is using corn to make ethanol to use as a gasoline additive, but that's a whole different topic.

I only had deer meat once and didn't care for it. But that may have been the fault of the guy who cooked it. I'm not a hunter myself, nor do I like fish. And I can't honestly say I check what my meal was fed. My wife buys it, prepares it and cooks it. I eat it. It's that simple for me!

[Torq]

OK, FOLKS !!!!!

Time for the STAY ON TOPIC POINT HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Comments about the TOPIC!!! Dis-agreements about the TOPIC!!!!! OPINIONS about the TOPIC!!!!!!

Following my drift here. EVERYONE stop the personal
"Digs" ,, "Comments" ,, "Issues",, "Apology Requests",, ETC ETC ETC ETC

EVERYONE is intitled to their OPINION on the TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are NOT entitled to attack each other's opinions PERSONALLY!!!!! That equals flaming and will be dealt with !!!!

This is a really good thread with good discussion,lets keep it that way.

IF I am not clear here send me a PM and we'll discuss further!!!!!!

Thanks Allll

Be Well

T