Gorean Philosophies

[littlepet]

Hey MacGuffin,

On the issue of training, it reminds me of "child rearing books" Where supposedly there are "proper ways" to raise children. While most people will agree they shouldn't be allowed to just run in the street or you shouldn't beat them bloody and lock them in closets, that's mostly common sense and any decent human being knows that.

Parents don't learn how to "raise children" they learn how to raise the child or children that they have. Because each child is a unique personality and this or that "technique" won't work for everyone. And if it works on the surface, it might not produce the proper response.

For example, spanking. Some kids are spanked and it makes them more obedient. As a child I was spanked and it just made me more sneaky and less capable to be honest with my parents about my feelings about things.

I became MORE resistant. Now they could have just started beating on me I suppose, and if their need to dominate me was so great they would have had to break me to do it, then that would have been that. But IMO it wouldn't have been a "proper way" to raise a child. Or more specifically not the proper way to raise me.

Speaking of training a submissive as if there are these special "secrets" treats submissives/slaves/pets as if we are a "category" as opposed to individual human beings. One learns how to deal with someone by interacting with that specific person, not trying to find sneaky ways to dominate them or something that LordMasterStupendous determined was the "best way."

On the lifestyle thing, I don't really know what to do with that. You bring up good points. I'm still stuck on the issues I have with the novels themselves and the writer of said novels.

Hey orchidsoul,

You make very good points, and I don't think that Goreans are running around behaving like that. I don't think that you'd be expected to behave in any certain way at their house either.

There are many fictional erotic novels that I've found very hot, or that spoke to me in some deeper way, but I didn't decide that who I was was in some way tied up in them. I'm not saying that doing such a thing is "wrong" I just don't "understand" it. It's even harder for me to understand it when there are things in the source text which I find personally morally disturbing. This may be why I don't follow any religions.

While I may pick and choose from various sources around me to help me to determine my views/beliefs/etc, I don't think I ever could again take any one book or philosophy completely wholesale as a system.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why people must have SYSTEMS. Is it part of humans being pack animals? Or does it run deeper than that? Does something feel more real or valid if someone else wrote about it first?

[Thorne]

On the issue of training, it reminds me of "child rearing books" Where supposedly there are "proper ways" to raise children. While most people will agree they shouldn't be allowed to just run in the street or you shouldn't beat them bloody and lock them in closets, that's mostly common sense and any decent human being knows that.

Parents don't learn how to "raise children" they learn how to raise the child or children that they have. Because each child is a unique personality and this or that "technique" won't work for everyone. And if it works on the surface, it might not produce the proper response.

Actually, parents have to learn both. As the father or two boys I learned that they had to be treated differently, as you say. Yet, there are certain basic commonalities which need to be adhered to as well. Many of these I learned from my own parents, and from helping them with my younger siblings LOTS of them: I was changing diapers at 13. When we had our own, I had to teach my wife some of the "tricks of the trade". Parents of boys will know at least one of these!
The parenting books can help those new parents who have no prior experience with children. Especially if there is no family support group, such as grandparents, aunts & uncles, etc. But these are just generalities, for the most part, and not necessarily to be taken as gospel.
The same should apply, I would think, to books and articles about training submissives. As general guidelines, to help the couple learn new techniques and possibilities, they can be valuable. They shouldn't be considered as the only way to do things, though.

There are many fictional erotic novels that I've found very hot, or that spoke to me in some deeper way, but I didn't decide that who I was was in some way tied up in them. I'm not saying that doing such a thing is "wrong" I just don't "understand" it. It's even harder for me to understand it when there are things in the source text which I find personally morally disturbing. This may be why I don't follow any religions.

Unfortunately, there are far too many people out there who have difficulty separating fantasy from reality. Just think of all the people who cannot bear to miss their favorite TV program, who suffer severe bouts of depression if a favored character should get killed off, or who change their entire self-image to mimic a favorite character. You see many of these kinds of people, as MacGuffin suggested, in the Trekkies, or Star Wars nuts, or in those bizarre religious cults.

While I may pick and choose from various sources around me to help me to determine my views/beliefs/etc, I don't think I ever could again take any one book or philosophy completely wholesale as a system.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why people must have SYSTEMS. Is it part of humans being pack animals? Or does it run deeper than that? Does something feel more real or valid if someone else wrote about it first?

I think we all tend to pick and choose among philosophies which resonate within us, to one degree or another. That does not mean we have to dive fully into any of them. And yes, people are generally social animals, depending upon the family, the tribe, the clan, and the state for their survival and, to some degree, for their identity. It's my feeling that those who read more, who think more, who are, perhaps, more intelligent, tend to loosen those bonds of dependency to a greater or lesser degree, learning to be themselves more individually and less as a member of a group. But there are still many, many people who need that group, perhaps because they are afraid to attempt to define themselves for themselves.

Like you, littlepet, I tend to denigrate religion, in general, because I have learned to think about it rather than just accept it. And thinking about it exposes the discrepancies within the teachings of any religion, some of which you have already pointed out. And like any other good book, the Good Book is filled with discrepancies!

As for the Gor books, I first came into contact with them in the early '70's shortly after their initial publications. I read the first several books, enjoying them because of their (minor) science fiction content, their sword & sorcery content, and not least because of their sexual content. I gave them up for similar reasons to yours; the decline of a good story and the increased dehumanization of women.

I enjoy a good erotic story myself, and I will even admit to enjoying some fictional stories about rape and forced submission. The difference is, I know that it is fiction. Reading of real men (and women, sometimes) doing those things to real women, or children, makes me sick. We all need to learn to live in reality, and keep the fiction on the page or the screen, where it belongs.