Lost Data

[Thorne]

BTW the consept of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscientient, or even omnibenevolent deity does not preclude or negate free will in anyway whatsoever.

From each creatures personal perspective the theory of consepual awarness of ones fate or destiny if it does exist shouldnt preclude the fact that since you have no foreknowledge or way of precieving your own fate (trapped as we are by the human condition) that speculation on it doesnt rob you of it.

Semantics! Regardless of one's personal knowledge, if an omniscient being has already foreseen the results of everything, then anything you do will only lead to those results. While you may perceive it as free will, from the perspective of such a being it's predestined.

As for the existance of Evil geting in the way of omnibenevolance; I shall refer you to the philosopher St Augustine who wrote so much about it in his work "The City of God".

Yes, theologians have been wrestling with this problem for centuries, with little or no success. Evil comes from Satan, they say. But God created Satan, and that omniscient God knew that Satan would bring evil to the world, so God knowingly created evil.

From "God: The Failed Hypothesis", by Victor J. Stenger:
"The problem of evil can be formally stated as follows:
1. If God exists, then the attributes of God are consistent with the existence of evil.
2. The attributes of God are not consistent with the existence of evil.
3. Therefore, God does not and cannot exist.

The God in this quote is, of course, the traditional Judeo/Christian/Islamic God as defined in the Old Testament. While this does not say that a god or gods cannot exist, it does refute the existence of God as we've been taught to understand him.

[DuncanONeil]

[QUOTE=Thorne;837746]Yes, theologians have been wrestling with this problem for centuries, with little or no success. Evil comes from Satan, they say. But God created Satan, and that omniscient God knew that Satan would bring evil to the world, so God knowingly created evil.
QUOTE]

As I remember Satan created himself!

[Thorne]

[QUOTE=DuncanONeil;837898]

Yes, theologians have been wrestling with this problem for centuries, with little or no success. Evil comes from Satan, they say. But God created Satan, and that omniscient God knew that Satan would bring evil to the world, so God knowingly created evil.
QUOTE]

As I remember Satan created himself!

If that were true then Satan would be God's equal, able to create something from nothing.

The way I learned it was that Satan, or Lucifer as he was called, was an angel created by God and cast down for rebelling against God. But with his omniscience, God would have known beforehand of Lucifer's evil, yet he created him anyway. Therefore, either God created evil, or he is not all knowing, or he is unable to stop what has been preordained. In any of these cases he fails the test for God (Jehovah).

[DuncanONeil]

[QUOTE=Thorne;837911]

If that were true then Satan would be God's equal, able to create something from nothing.

The way I learned it was that Satan, or Lucifer as he was called, was an angel created by God and cast down for rebelling against God. But with his omniscience, God would have known beforehand of Lucifer's evil, yet he created him anyway. Therefore, either God created evil, or he is not all knowing, or he is unable to stop what has been preordained. In any of these cases he fails the test for God (Jehovah).

"Lucifer as he was called, was an angel created by God and cast down for rebelling against God."
See! As I said Satan created himself.
"with his omniscience, God would have known beforehand of Lucifer's evil," I take it then that you are of the opinion that God must not allow free will? Omniscience is not so much knowledge of will happen. But of all of the courses of results for all decision points.

[Thorne]

I take it then that you are of the opinion that God must not allow free will?

Not exactly. It's my opinion that the idea of God, as defined in the Bible, is incompatible with the idea of free will.

Omniscience is not so much knowledge of will happen. But of all of the courses of results for all decision points.

That's one definition, certainly, but not the one which is taught in the Biblical version of God. Or at least the why I was taught it. And much depends on which specific religion you are talking about. Since none can actually know anything real about their god, they make up their own definitions of what that god is, what he can do and why he does it. And when society grow beyond those definitions, why, they change the definitions!

[DuncanONeil]

Not exactly. It's my opinion that the idea of God, as defined in the Bible, is incompatible with the idea of free will.

Sorry I can not see such a restrictive description. Free will existed and is mention since the Garden.

That's one definition, certainly, but not the one which is taught in the Biblical version of God. Or at least the why I was taught it. And much depends on which specific religion you are talking about. Since none can actually know anything real about their god, they make up their own definitions of what that god is, what he can do and why he does it. And when society grow beyond those definitions, why, they change the definitions!

I will be honest, I do not remember the exact language of the lessons I received. Yet the concept of an All Knowing, All Powerful" God does not alter the description of knowing the result of all different actions by any of the creations. Now that you made me think thjat far back I do have a vague recollection of such a comment being made eithe by the nuns in elementary or priests in High School.

[Thorne]

Sorry I can not see such a restrictive description. Free will existed and is mention since the Garden.
I'm aware that it's mentioned. I just don't agree that it's possible with the biblical interpretation of God, as I remember my lessons.
I will be honest, I do not remember the exact language of the lessons I received. Yet the concept of an All Knowing, All Powerful" God does not alter the description of knowing the result of all different actions by any of the creations. Now that you made me think thjat far back I do have a vague recollection of such a comment being made eithe by the nuns in elementary or priests in High School.

Yeah, that's part of my problem. I've spent so many years gratefully forgetting those lessons it's hard to dredge them up again.