Time, death and the universe

[leo9]

Why I believe in reincarnation: eventually parts of me that were once other things will be parts of something else.

If you believe in homeopathy (I don't, but if...), then matter retains some kind of memory of other forms of matter it was once in contact with. (A similar argument has been advanced to explain hauntings: the materials of the place hold a memory of the thoughts and feelings that occured around them.) So maybe some memory of us could cling to our atoms? If so, it wouldn't be reincarnation in a specific other body, but a mixing with every other spirit and merging into the spiritual atmosphere of the world... which sounds good to me.

[Thorne]

then matter retains some kind of memory of other forms of matter it was once in contact with.

One of the big problems of homeopathy (as well as other "mystical" explanations) is that they have never been able to demonstrate such memory, nor explain how this memory is retained. They simply state it as fact and expect people to accept it.

the materials of the place hold a memory of the thoughts and feelings that occured around them.

I have seen and heard of instances where certain items which were undergoing some kind of stress were able to act similar to a phonograph, recording sounds which occurred around them during that period of stress. I would guess that something similar could happen with electromagnetic impulses. But this is a physical process, not a spiritual one.

... which sounds good to me.

This is the best reason in the world to suspect this idea. Without actually having objective, reproducible evidence, you can make up anything that feels or sounds good and claim it to be true. Can you envision a mechanism that allows some kind of memory of our consciousness to cling to atoms? Can you demonstrate it? Or can you at least come up with something that would show it to be false? Without those things, it's just speculation and wishful thinking.

[Thorne]

I have seen and heard of instances where certain items which were undergoing some kind of stress were able to act similar to a phonograph, recording sounds which occurred around them during that period of stress.

While rereading this I had a somewhat terrifying thought. Steel is a very durable material, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it could, under the right conditions, act as a sound recorder. (I don't know if this is true. I'm merely speculating.) If such a thing were possible, can you imagine what the steel from the WTC might have recorded during it's fall? Then, take all of that steel and transport it to a dump site, piling it up willy-nilly and wait for just the right temperature change, or just the right tremor in the earth. Imagine what a nearby listener might hear if the steel were to suddenly begin screaming!

I'm not sure I'll be able to sleep tonight.

[leo9]

One of the big problems of homeopathy (as well as other "mystical" explanations) is that they have never been able to demonstrate such memory, nor explain how this memory is retained. They simply state it as fact and expect people to accept it.

I agree, which is one of the reasons I don't believe it.

I have seen and heard of instances where certain items which were undergoing some kind of stress were able to act similar to a phonograph, recording sounds which occurred around them during that period of stress. I would guess that something similar could happen with electromagnetic impulses. But this is a physical process, not a spiritual one.

Leaving aside the fact that all attempts to explain telepathy and related effects elecromagnetically have failed, it's a moot point whether finding a physical explanation for hauntings would remove it from the realm of the spiritual.

This is the best reason in the world to suspect this idea. Without actually having objective, reproducible evidence, you can make up anything that feels or sounds good and claim it to be true. Can you envision a mechanism that allows some kind of memory of our consciousness to cling to atoms? Can you demonstrate it? Or can you at least come up with something that would show it to be false? Without those things, it's just speculation and wishful thinking.

The fact that I started the post by invoking a theory which I stated I didn't believe in, and then referenced an idea I put forward in a work of fiction, should have made it clear that I was playing with ideas and not putting forward hard theories.

[Thorne]

Leaving aside the fact that all attempts to explain telepathy and related effects elecromagnetically have failed, it's a moot point whether finding a physical explanation for hauntings would remove it from the realm of the spiritual.

All efforts to show that telepathy actually exists have also failed. Some people still believe in it. But developing a physical, measurable, reproducible explanation for anything automatically removes it from the spiritual or supernatural. By definition.

[thir]

All efforts to show that telepathy actually exists have also failed. Some people still believe in it. But developing a physical, measurable, reproducible explanation for anything automatically removes it from the spiritual or supernatural. By definition.

Ehm, I don't think so. What about the creationists?

[Thorne]

Ehm, I don't think so. What about the creationists?

What about them? They have no physical, measurable, reproducible evidence for creation. Only their holy books and wishful thinking. And even their books are contradictory and completely at odds with observable evidence. They rely on the supernatural explanation, without evidence.

[thir]

What about them? They have no physical, measurable, reproducible evidence for creation. Only their holy books and wishful thinking. And even their books are contradictory and completely at odds with observable evidence. They rely on the supernatural explanation, without evidence.

Well, that was what I meant. Science aside, they still have their own version, meaning proof does not make any difference.

Or are we at cross purposes here??

[thir]

One of the big problems of homeopathy (as well as other "mystical" explanations) is that they have never been able to demonstrate such memory, nor explain how this memory is retained. They simply state it as fact and expect people to accept it.

Not quite that simple. I, for one, do not believe in it. I was talked into trying it, which seemed a huge waste of time, but for the sake of argument I did. And it had a violent impact, and I felt like a fool, and still do, being influenced by something I am sure is nonsense!

]

[Thorne]

Not quite that simple. I, for one, do not believe in it. I was talked into trying it, which seemed a huge waste of time, but for the sake of argument I did. And it had a violent impact, and I felt like a fool, and still do, being influenced by something I am sure is nonsense!

Not sure what kind of impact you're talking about here. Basically, homeopathic medicines consist of water and sugar. Unless you're a diabetic, there should be no impact at all. There's a group in England, the 10:23 group or campaign, which periodically performs a mass "suicide", in public, by overdosing on homeopathic poisons/sleeping pills. To date, every attempt has resulted in failure to suicide.

[thir]

Not sure what kind of impact you're talking about here. Basically, homeopathic medicines consist of water and sugar. Unless you're a diabetic, there should be no impact at all. There's a group in England, the 10:23 group or campaign, which periodically performs a mass "suicide", in public, by overdosing on homeopathic poisons/sleeping pills. To date, every attempt has resulted in failure to suicide.

I got quite seriously ill. Stopped. After getting better, tried again, because I could not believe it could be that stuff. And it happened again. And rather later, again.

Go figure.

[Thorne]

I got quite seriously ill. Stopped. After getting better, tried again, because I could not believe it could be that stuff. And it happened again. And rather later, again.

Go figure.

Were they pills? It could be a reaction to the filler materials. My mother-in-law couldn't take generic meds supposedly because they used lower quality filler materials, and she would have an adverse reaction. Personally, I think it was psychosomatic, but I never tried to prove that.

Since homeopathic medications are diluted to the point where there is a near zero probability of their being a single molecule of the medication remaining in the pill, there would be nothing of the active ingredient for you to react to.

[thir]

Were they pills? It could be a reaction to the filler materials. My mother-in-law couldn't take generic meds supposedly because they used lower quality filler materials, and she would have an adverse reaction. Personally, I think it was psychosomatic, but I never tried to prove that.

It was a liquid. The idea that it was psychocsomatic seems the only one, but a bit unreal in the face of how much of a fool I felt, and how little I expected anything to happen at all. I mean, water into water..

Since homeopathic medications are diluted to the point where there is a near zero probability of their being a single molecule of the medication remaining in the pill, there would be nothing of the active ingredient for you to react to.

I know!