Pastor Says

[Punish_her]

You seem to me to label any society that isn't dominated by men as a matriarchy, but I think that is an over simplification. I also read you as seeing every conquest of a country (of which there have been countless during history) as owing to being lead by a matriachy.

incorrect reverse logic, not every conquered nation was a matriarchy, but every matriarchy was conquered. not the same

Interesting. What statistics are those?

from upenn: http://bpp.wharton.upenn.edu/betseys..._Happiness.pdf
freakonomics: http://www.freakonomics.com/2007/10/...en-so-unhappy/
huffington post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcus..._b_289511.html

What evidence? This is the first I have heard of this, especially since polygamy is often not even voluntary for women.
That, to the best of knowledge, also goes for the mormons, where men marry several much younger women, often under 15. There was a program with Dr Phil I saw one boring day in which he complained bitterly that nobody interveded, though a significant number of brides were under age.

well that's just a crock of shit. contrary to what some people think, women cannot be forced into marriage. not even the mormons do that, as they give the girl the chance to leave the religion at any time (furthermore, they often force to leave for a period of time around 16 so she can decide what she truly wants for herself). John Stossel had a feature about polygamy and sister wives, and they seemed happy and even advocating it. but here's some evo psych for you:
we are a historically polygamous psecies, geneticists have shown we are decided from 2 to three times as many women as men. think about it in these terms:
would the average woman want to be ryan reynald's third wife? or john smiths first and only wife? i rest my case
and before you say "that'sdumb, nuh-uh!" http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...it-polygamy-an it's completely true
furthermore, dr phil is not there to actually confront any real issues, he's there to entertain and get ratings, most of which are from women

[Thorne]

well that's just a crock of shit. contrary to what some people think, women cannot be forced into marriage. not even the mormons do that, as they give the girl the chance to leave the religion at any time

Which generally means leaving her family, too. ANY sanctions constitute coercion, you know. Telling a young girl that she's free to go out on her own if she doesn't want to do as she's told is no different than threatening her with stoning. It's one of the 'features' of religious training.

(furthermore, they often force to leave for a period of time around 16 so she can decide what she truly wants for herself)

I know the Amish do something like this, but I wasn't aware that the Mormons also did it. But again, having to give up everything you've ever known, your church, your family, your friends, in order to have some freedom of choice in who you marry is still coercion.

we are a historically polygamous psecies, geneticists have shown we are decided from 2 to three times as many women as men. think about it in these terms:

Well, considering that many cultures practiced polygamy, and even those who didn't sometimes allowed rulers the right to bed women on their wedding nights, it's not a surprising finding. You also have to take into account the idea that even in supposedly monogamous societies, men tended to 'spread the wealth'. An ancient Roman man would only have one wife, who would bear his heirs and keep his house, but he would generally have at least one mistress, more if he could afford it, to see to his sexual needs. And even when it is not culturally acceptable, men tend to make use of mistresses and prostitutes. Not too surprising that there would be more female lines of descent than male, then.

would the average woman want to be ryan reynald's third wife? or john smiths first and only wife?

A bigger question might be whether someone like Ryan Reynolds would accept an 'average' woman as ANY wife? Having fame (though I admit, I had to look him up, and I still don't recognize him) and wealth, he is able to get almost any women he wants. Why would he settle for less than perfection? But there are plenty of women who would rather have the stability of a John Smith than have to play second or third fiddle.

Yes, there is an obvious genetic benefit to having more than one wife, providing you can care for all of them, and all of the children. The benefits of having more than one husband can be great as well, though not as genetically beneficial. In a culture where the men are considered providers, having more than one such provider would be of immense benefit to wife and children. Why don't we see more people pushing for wives with multiple husbands, then? Or households with multiple wives AND husbands?

Primarily because we men don't like to share our property. And, historically, women have always been considered property. In many parts of the world, they still are. And denying them the right to choose their own health care, to choose whether or not to have children, is little more than telling them that they are still property, even in an 'enlightened' society like ours.

[thir]

incorrect reverse logic, not every conquered nation was a matriarchy, but every matriarchy was conquered. not the same

I do not get this. Most of cilivilisations that have been in history have been conquered, whether matriarchy or not!

from upenn: http://bpp.wharton.upenn.edu/betseys..._Happiness.pdf
freakonomics: http://www.freakonomics.com/2007/10/...en-so-unhappy/
huffington post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcus..._b_289511.html

upenn: "Diener (2000) notes that one of the hallmarks of subjective well-being is that it
is subjective, stating that “objective conditions such as health, comfort, virtue, or
wealth” are “notably absent” and, while influencing subjective well-being, “they
are not seen as inherent.” This aspect of subjective well-being makes understanding
what is behind declining female happiness a challenging task, yet decoding the
paradox identified in this paper may be the key to a better understanding of subjective
well-being."

freakecnimics: "3. There was enormous social pressure on women in the old days to pretend they were happy even if they weren’t. Now, society allows women to express their feelings openly when they are dissatisfied with life.

4. Related to No. 3 in the preceding paragraph: these self-reported happiness measures are so hopelessly garbled by other factors that they are completely meaningless. The ever-growing army of happiness researchers will go nuts at this suggestion, but there is some pretty good evidence (like this paper by Marianne Bertrand and Sendhil Mullainathan) that declarations of happiness leave a lot to be desired as outcome measures.

Stevenson and Wolfers don’t take a stand on what the most likely explanation might be. If I had to wager a guess, I would say Nos. 3 and 4 are the most plausible."

huffingtonpost: says clearly that the trend is that men start out sad but become happier as they get older. women start out happy, but get sadder as they get older.
Is that hard to understand??

well that's just a crock of shit.
contrary to what some people think, women cannot be forced into marriage.

What planet are you living on?? Of course they can, and are!

not even the mormons do that, as they give the girl the chance to leave the religion at any time (furthermore, they often force to leave for a period of time around 16 so she can decide what she truly wants for herself).

So, the choice is leave all you have been told is right and proper, and your family, and your society and everything you know, or go out into the unknown in a world you do not know?

The two teenagers who had run off and who were in the show, said they missed their families horribly, but could not stand being married at 15 with someone they hardly knew.

John Stossel had a feature about polygamy and sister wives, and they seemed happy and even advocating it. but here's some evo psych for you:

I do not know who John Stossel is, but know myself of one group that lived happily polygamy and have heard of others. Noone says is it wrong or impossible, given voluntary participation by all.

we are a historically polygamous psecies

Nonsense!

, geneticists have shown we are decided from 2 to three times as many women as men.

I do not understand what is meant by this

think about it in these terms:
would the average woman want to be ryan reynald's third wife? or john smiths first and only wife? i rest my case

You lost me here. Do you mean the mormon's John Smith? But most people would like to be one man's wife, as we see in countries where you can choose.

and before you say "that'sdumb, nuh-uh!" http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...it-polygamy-an it's completely true

"Contrary to popular belief, most women benefit from polygynous society, and most men benefit from monogamous society. This is because polygynous society allows some women to share a resourceful man of high status. George Bernard Shaw (who was one of the founders of the London School of Economics and Political Science where I teach) put it best, when he observed, “The maternal instinct leads a woman to prefer a tenth share in a first rate man to the exclusive possession of a third rate one.”"

LOL - what nonsense! Most women want to be a 10th wife rather than having one for themselves? Do you see women of today clamouring to get polygamy relationships???

There is a poly group who wants group marriages, but that is with every concievable combination.

furthermore, dr phil is not there to actually confront any real issues, he's there to entertain and get ratings, most of which are from women

So you think women are entertained by a show showing how bad polyamory is? You know, I think you are right there.

[leo9]

contrary to what some people think, women cannot be forced into marriage.

That would be news to the special units in every police force in this country set up to protect young Asian women from forced marriages. And we're not talking about just the emotional force a family can bring to bear, we're talking about girls who know they will be hunted down and killed if they run away. Still, no pressure, right?

not even the mormons do that, as they give the girl the chance to leave the religion at any time (furthermore, they often force to leave for a period of time around 16 so she can decide what she truly wants for herself).

"You have a perfectly free choice, dear. You can do what God wants, or you can leave your home and your family and the one true Church and damn your soul to Hell forever. Up to you."

[Punish_her]

That would be news to the special units in every police force in this country set up to protect young Asian women from forced marriages. And we're not talking about just the emotional force a family can bring to bear, we're talking about girls who know they will be hunted down and killed if they run away. Still, no pressure, right?"

thats cmparing apples and oranges and i assumed that sex slavery via gunpoint, kidnap, and violence is obviously beyond the realm of a mormon girl becoming the second wife of a well off, affluent man

[thir]

"That would be news to the special units in every police force in this country set up to protect young Asian women from forced marriages. And we're not talking about just the emotional force a family can bring to bear, we're talking about girls who know they will be hunted down and killed if they run away. Still, no pressure, right?"

thats cmparing apples and oranges and i assumed that sex slavery via gunpoint, kidnap, and violence is obviously beyond the realm of a mormon girl becoming the second wife of a well off, affluent man

Why is that comparing oranges and apples? The topic was coercion, and a forced marriage is coercion, or at the extreme end of coercion. Also in DK there is a lot of trouble with forced marriages from cultures where the parents have traditionally arranged the marriages. The girls (they are usually quite young) run away, with the risk of either fending for themselves at an early age, or ending up a victim of an 'honour' killing. Also the boys end up in this situation, except they do not get killed, but they are likewise under a lot of presure. I have personal knowlegde of one such girl, who is still in hiding while trying to figure out how to get an education while avoid getting killed.
Many cannot handle that - they get married.

Why is a mormon girl always getting an affluent man? Does this mean that there are a lot of poorer men who never get married? In programs I have seen, a lot of the affluence came from a number of wifes working outside the family, and bringing their wages home, while the rest takes care of the home and children.

Anyway, if she is coerced, I do not see what affluence or not matter, but she could be wife no 6 or 7. How fun do you think it is for a girl of perhaps 15 to be married to a man 3 or 4 times her age? Do you think she gets enough attention, love, sex? Does any of them? Money isn't everything, and anyway in this day and age people can earn their own money.

[Punish_her]

"That would be news to the special units in every police force in this country set up to protect young Asian women from forced marriages. And we're not talking about just the emotional force a family can bring to bear, we're talking about girls who know they will be hunted down and killed if they run away. Still, no pressure, right?"



Why is that comparing oranges and apples? The topic was coercion, and a forced marriage is coercion, or at the extreme end of coercion. Also in DK there is a lot of trouble with forced marriages from cultures where the parents have traditionally arranged the marriages. The girls (they are usually quite young) run away, with the risk of either fending for themselves at an early age, or ending up a victim of an 'honour' killing. Also the boys end up in this situation, except they do not get killed, but they are likewise under a lot of presure. I have personal knowlegde of one such girl, who is still in hiding while trying to figure out how to get an education while avoid getting killed.
Many cannot handle that - they get married.

Why is a mormon girl always getting an affluent man? Does this mean that there are a lot of poorer men who never get married? In programs I have seen, a lot of the affluence came from a number of wifes working outside the family, and bringing their wages home, while the rest takes care of the home and children.

Anyway, if she is coerced, I do not see what affluence or not matter, but she could be wife no 6 or 7. How fun do you think it is for a girl of perhaps 15 to be married to a man 3 or 4 times her age? Do you think she gets enough attention, love, sex? Does any of them? Money isn't everything, and anyway in this day and age people can earn their own money.

jesus christ, in that case any marriage is coercion. what if the guy gets down on one knee and the girldoesnt want to hurt his feelings, coercion.
what if a girl gives the guy and ultimatum of marriage or seperation, coercion.
what if a guy wants to get a divorce but the girl will get most of his assets so he just lives in a shitty marriage, coercion

[thir]

jesus christ, in that case any marriage is coercion. what if the guy gets down on one knee and the girldoesnt want to hurt his feelings, coercion.

The decision is hers and not coercion - unless the family is threatening to kill her if she refuses. Coercion is a pressure from the outside.
Or are you suggesting that a person can coerce him- or herself??

what if a girl gives the guy and ultimatum of marriage or seperation, coercion.

?? I do not understand - marriage or seperation?

what if a guy wants to get a divorce but the girl will get most of his assets so he just lives in a shitty marriage, coercion

Then he himself decides beween comfort and freedom, doesn't he? Again, coercion by defintion comes from the outside, and from people.

However, if the wife had said: 'if you break this marrage, I will make sure you never see the children again' - that is a threat or attempting to coerce him to stay in the marriage.

[Punish_her]

The decision is hers and not coercion - unless the family is threatening to kill her if she refuses. Coercion is a pressure from the outside
Or are you suggesting that a person can coerce him- or herself??

someone else's expectations of you,from the outside

?? I do not understand - marriage or seperation?

what's not to get, tie the know or take a hike

Then he himself decides beween comfort and freedom, doesn't he? Again, coercion by defintion comes from the outside, and from people.

and she'll seize is assets because of court systems, from the outside