Time, death and the universe

[thir]

I don't know of any cases where a person was declared brain dead and then came back to report on such events. Not saying it can't happen, but I haven't heard of any documented cases. Only stories. Still, even if it did happen, all that tells us is that we still have a ways to go to understand what brain death really is. There may be (and probably are) processes going on in there that we haven't yet learned to measure. Perfectly normal, electrochemical processes.

I wish I had names, but my memory...But these were in fact documented cases, by at least one brain surgeon doing research, and others, doctors and some physicists. Totally scientific, no hocus pocus, which was what made it so interesting. The one brain surgeon got interested because he always claimed that people in a coma did not experience anything, then he landed in a coma himself and did experience things. Since that was contrary to everything he knew about the brain, he got interested.

I am not saying there is anything super natural about this, and I do not quite understand why that is always assumed. But, as I have mentioned earlier, death has become complicated! And people who have been D-E-A-D including no heart beat and no brain activity have actually come back. And finally the - IMO - rather dogmatic science have woken up to the fact that there really is something here they do not understand, and which aught to be researched.

There are a lot of motivations. A big one is the need for people to believe that they are special,

Well, we are. Scientifically proven unique ;-)

and being created by a magical being who wants to give them some eternal reward or something fills that need.

I think the longing for justice is also probably part of it.

But I think the biggest motivation for belief is fear of death. Some people just need the comfort of believing they will carry on after death.

No offense, but it is my impression that US people are unusually afraid of death, even to the worship-youth culture. Maybe not all take it quite so seriously. I have toyed with the idea that maybe Americans, being to individualistic, have less feeling of a continuity, or a feeling that things 'move on' after them??

I also have the feeling that the bad religions (as opposed to good ones harming no one) makes people afraid that there is in fact an afterlife, that is hell, and that they must be on the right side to avoid that.
No offense meant to religious people here, but that is to me the most abusive idea you can plant in anyone's mind!

As I've said before, you can provide all the evidence against the existence of something and still not prove that it doesn't exist. And while the "absence of proof is not proof of absence", you could show that the absence of evidence for the existence of gods IS evidence of absence.

I cannot see that logic. Do you think science knows = everything?

Most people don't believe that unicorns exist, but you cannot prove they don't exist. It's the absence of any evidence to show that they DO exist that lets us claim that they are not real. And that can only be a tentative claim, though very strong, because we cannot prove that one will not pop up on the White House lawn tomorrow morning. Just don't hold your breath.

They might have existed in much older times, hence the myths now ;-))

The same holds true for gods. No matter how many people believe that gods exist, the lack of any evidence to show that they exist is a big mark against them.

Scientifically speaking, but you know that faith is nothing to do with science.

The fact that there are so many different interpretations of gods is a very strong indicator that, at least, just one God does not exist. And the fact that even those who DO believe in this one God all have different opinions about his expectations of them is another large piece of evidence against Him.

I think it would be more weird if many different cultures had the exact same image and the same ideas..

So yeah, I cannot prove that anyone's god does not exist, or that any gods do not exist. But I'm not making the claim here! If I was to claim that gods cannot exist, then I could be expected to prove it. It is those who DO make the claim that gods, or a God, exist that need to provide the evidence. But all we get are suppositions and gobbledygook. And the charlatans continue raking in the money.

I am with you on the money thing, and I do think that bad religion is harmful - very much so.

Now, my God, or rather Goddess, does exist, and my Gods deliver. Because she is just another word for nature, and the sun does in fact deliver and gives us life :-) She is beautiful beyond belief and ingenious beyond belief and gives us access anything we need, but she does not cuddle her creations and does not pull her punches.

When I die, I do not know what will happen, except I will be a bundle of building blocks for her to play around with again. My individual being is gone, maybe, but my bits and pieces are eternal, and that is good enough for me.

[Thorne]

I wish I had names, but my memory...But these were in fact documented cases, by at least one brain surgeon doing research, and others, doctors and some physicists. Totally scientific, no hocus pocus, which was what made it so interesting. The one brain surgeon got interested because he always claimed that people in a coma did not experience anything, then he landed in a coma himself and did experience things. Since that was contrary to everything he knew about the brain, he got interested.

Not at all scientific. It's all anecdotal. We are expected to believe, first of all, that these people actually saw something. Then we are expected to believe that they are telling the truth about what they saw. All with no real evidence! The fact that these viewings tend to follow cultural lines is also suspect. You don't hear about Christians getting an Islamic view of heaven, or Muslims seeing the Shinto version. And none of these people actually come back with any information that is not available through more mundane methods here on Earth.

I am not saying there is anything super natural about this, and I do not quite understand why that is always assumed. But, as I have mentioned earlier, death has become complicated! And people who have been D-E-A-D including no heart beat and no brain activity have actually come back. And finally the - IMO - rather dogmatic science have woken up to the fact that there really is something here they do not understand, and which aught to be researched.

I agree, our understanding of the brain, of the mind, is still in its infancy. There is so much more to learn. A hundred years ago, if your heart stopped, you were clinically dead. There was no method of resuscitation. Now, we have ways to restart hearts. Yes, there have been a few people, with no detectable brain activity, who have been revived under very unique circumstances. It's more common with those who have fallen into icy water, kept cold to preserve the physical structure of the brain. There have also been people who, after suffering clinical brain death, have lost portions of their brains to decay, and when revived are much different than who they were before. Everything points to the mind being dependent upon the physical structure of the brain. No magic involved.

I think the longing for justice is also probably part of it.

Yes, I suppose. I'd rather see justice in this world, though. Having to rely on some of the evil beings that religions have cooked up doesn't seem like justice to me.

No offense, but it is my impression that US people are unusually afraid of death, even to the worship-youth culture.

The fact that some 80% of Americans identify as some brand of Christian has something to do with this. It's been my observation, based upon my own feelings and of those I've talked with, that everyone fears the process of dying, being in pain, but that those who profess a deep religious belief seem to fear BEING dead more than those who hold no such beliefs.

I also have the feeling that the bad religions (as opposed to good ones harming no one)

There are no "good" religions. There are only some that are less bad than others. They all seem to require a belief in something that cannot be shown to be real. They all seem to promote poor thought processes.

makes people afraid that there is in fact an afterlife, that is hell, and that they must be on the right side to avoid that.No offense meant to religious people here, but that is to me the most abusive idea you can plant in anyone's mind!

I don't know. I think it runs a close second to telling people that they are born bad and can only be redeemed by believing in an invisible man in the sky who has a fetish for human sacrifice.

I cannot see that logic. Do you think science knows = everything?

Not at all, but I do think that "religion knows" = nothing. And I do think that science CAN come to know everything, eventually. Throughout mankind's history, things we didn't understand were consistently attributed to the actions of the gods. And religious leaders have tried to keep people believing those things. But over time, century after century, thinking people have learned what makes lightning, what causes earthquakes and volcanoes, where comets and meteors come from. Every bit of knowledge we've gained has pushed the gods further and further back. The religions have fought back, torturing and executing those who "blaspheme" against their teachings, but the progress of knowledge is inexorable, and always leads to natural answers, not supernatural. Now we have reached the point where it's time to realize that there are no gods, or if there are they have no interest in this little plot of mud around a nondescript star in a yawningly average galaxy.

Scientifically speaking, but you know that faith is nothing to do with science.

It has nothing to do with reality, either, when you apply it to beings such as gods.

I think it would be more weird if many different cultures had the exact same image and the same ideas..

Even if that were so, where are the cultural differences between Lutherans and Catholics? Between Baptists and Episcopalians?
Between Sunni and Sufi? These aren't cultural differences, they are religious differences. Different interpretations of the magical words of ancient books.

Now, my God, or rather Goddess, does exist, and my Gods deliver. Because she is just another word for nature, and the sun does in fact deliver and gives us life :-) She is beautiful beyond belief and ingenious beyond belief and gives us access anything we need, but she does not cuddle her creations and does not pull her punches.

And does she answer your prayers? Does she protect you from harm? Nature is a capricious bitch with no concern for our welfare. If we had to rely only on her mankind would still be huddling in caves, wondering where our next meal was coming from. It's from the advances of science and technology that we are able to build structure to protect us from nature's ravages; that we can transport food and medicines across deserts and oceans; that we can live well into our 80's and 90's rather than dying in our 30's. Anthropomorphizing nature doesn't make her a goddess. It's just more fuzzy thinking.