The Arbitrary Sir

[Resist]

Recently, I've been ruminating on something I see a lot, especially here, and especially in Chat. I see the word "Sir" an awful lot.

Stick with me on this.

My feeling is that this word, this title of respect, gets thrown around too often and too easily, and subsequently loses the intended depth of respect. For example, I see subs calling doms they've never spoken to before "Sir", as a sort of default setting. I'm not trying to judge this--I'm simply trying to understand if it genuinely adds to the BDSM experience, or, as I hypothesize, detracts from it. My initial reaction is that "Sir" should be something a sub earns the right to call a dom--not an easy "Yes, I'm submissive," sign.

I understand that some people practice a Gorean lifestyle, or other system of behavior, which requires them to address all doms as Sir at all times. This set of rules carries with it, from what I understand, enough intrinsic meaning to supplement the use of the title and thus prevents the detrimental effects of over-use.

So my query to you: Is "Sir" overused in some situations/contexts to the point at which its meaning is lost? Does it shed true respect and replace it with foreplay? Should we care?


(Note: The same problem occurs with Miss, Ma'am, etc. I simply see Sir more often than most.)

Thoughts?

[SOUTHERN GENTLEMAN]

It's what you feel. If a sub feels saying Sir, Mama, Mistress, Master, etc: work for them they should. However, a dominant should require how they are to be addressed, and a sub should respond approipriately. You can talk to me by MY first name, but not if you are MY sub. It's about the DOM and the sub. Think about it little lady.

OK, You aren't a little lady. MY point is subs and Dominants.

[Resist]

Interesting. And no, I'm not a lady, but I see your point.

Consider this, then: At the request of a dom, should a sub--even one schooled in Gorean philosophy and the like--*not* call a dom Sir? This has happened to me more than once and I have been scoffed at by telling subs not to call me Sir. It seems to me that they cannot truly respect me because they do not know me, and I thus find it nothing less than insulting to be presented with such a sugar-coated falsehood.

[slavebecca]

i was always trained that "Sir" and "Ma'am" was a general, polite, honorific. It does not carry as much weight as, for example, Master.

Even in my vanilla life i use Sir and Ma'am.

For me to say something other than Sir or Ma'am requires it to be earned. i will NEVER call someone Mistress or Master until they've earned and proved it. Furthermore, when Owned i will address a Dominant as my Owner wishes me to.

Sir & Ma'am is simply being polite and respectful in the vanilla and the leather worlds. There is no excuse for rudeness in either.

Anything above and beyond that must be earned. Yes Dominants, you must earn it. i was raised by The Old Guard and i am very opinionated about certain things.

[violett]

Just my 2 pence on the subject. I never call anyone sir or maam or mistress. There are the odd one or two who I have known for a long time and who may have earned that title but even then I would only say it to them very rarely and only in certain circumstances.

The only one I call Master is My Master. Even then it was a while before I even called him Sir and a slow progression to Master - He would not allow it until both of us felt it was right.

I am not saying it is wrong for a submissive to call others sir or maam as a matter of course just that it is wrong for me. Everyone is individual and as such has to act however they feel is appropriate.

Just my humble opinion

[Resist]

All good points.

I too use Sir in the vanilla world quite often--but almost as a joke. I feel like the context of those interactions that make it a simple gesture don't apply in the leather world. But that's why I started this thread! Very interesting.

[thir]

Consider this, then: At the request of a dom, should a sub--even one schooled in Gorean philosophy and the like--*not* call a dom Sir? This has happened to me more than once and I have been scoffed at by telling subs not to call me Sir. It seems to me that they cannot truly respect me because they do not know me, and I thus find it nothing less than insulting to be presented with such a sugar-coated falsehood.

I am with you on this. I disliked subs with whom I had no relation calling me Mistress, that was meant for My subs and they earned that.

I can see the problem for a sub who has been instructed to use a specific mode of adress, but that is their problem. I think people have a right to be adressed as they wish.

[thir]

I am not saying it is wrong for a submissive to call others sir or maam as a matter of course just that it is wrong for me.

It can be, though, it the person adressed does not like it.

[damyanti]

I understand where your post came from because I know some people get of on doing it and that is fine, but personally it does make me quirk an eyebrow and I see it as cheap posturing and a bit sluttish too. (disclaimer: this is not in reference to anyone personally as I haven't even been to chat in quite awhile).

I don't use it in general vanilla life because "Sir" and "Ma'am" doesn't translate well to my native language. It would sound comical or as if I was mocking them, because we stopped using those with the end of the feudal system in Europe. If you don't know one well or want to show formality in speech "Mr." or "Mrs." will suffice and you can address them formally by using a more formal pronoun (same as in French) Vous-You as opposed to tu-you.

As for BDSM situations...I have never called anyone in the forum posts or chat "sir". I address everyone respectfully by their name, but often if they have Master/Sir/Dom as part of their screen name I will drop that because I find it presumptuous.

The reason I don't go around calling everyone "sir" as a default setting is because to me it has a deeper meaning, just because someone says they are a Dom to me it doesn't make them anything special...I want to see for myself if the gentleman in question is really a dominant person or a pompous ass and or domineering stupid.

I have never called anyone "sir" 24/7 and I doubt I ever will...because frankly I don't find that more "true" just silly.

In private IM I have occasionally jokingly addressed as "sir" dominants I know and am friends with or to clearly indicate that I have gotten the point they were trying to make in discussion.

My initial reaction is that "Sir" should be something a Dom earns by being himself and by the nature of the relationship he has with the sub in question. (So far, hehe) there has been only one who has made me feel the urge inside to address him as such, and really mean it (as something more than in a lighthearted banter). When I told him that he said that he too never understood subs calling him "sir" or even "master" as a default thing or even at all, but that he likes it when I do it, because he now gets the meaning behind it. I never felt or spoken "Master" in reference to anyone (yet, ).

[Pearlgem]

I suppose is it a matter or personal taste but I'm quite glad using 'Sir's and 'Ma'am's is not general protocol here. It seems ridiculous to me to use a term that implies you have that relationship with someone when you have nothing of the sort. I certainly never use it now and in the past the few times I did it was flirtatious as I 'tried out Doms' on line. I didn't even call my Master 'Sir' until a year into our relationship when he felt the time was right.
It's actually quite important to me to build up a real relationship with some one, if I'm going to, and using 'Sir's too early interferes with that, I think. But I appreciate others may not feel the same. ( I do wonder at the folk who claim to have a Master two weeks after initial contact. How can you have built that sort of relationship in such little time?)

[skp2bear]

First of all as an older lady raised for the most part in the southern part of the US.I gat punished every time I did not respond with "yes maam or Sir' to anyone older than myself. As I grew this was extended to employers, teachers, bosses, and customers and anyone else whom I respected. As a newbie in the lifestyle several mentors and friends who are Doms have told me that all Doms should be called 'Sir" except for your master who will tell you what he prefers.

[MrDom]

Hi guys how is everyone's new year?
This is the protocol I was explained when I first got into the lifestyle in the 70"s lol

Dominates should be call Sir/Ma'am for the respect of being a dominate.

Now the term Master/Mistress is used only in 2 case's first case is the slave call her Dominate Master/Mistress only because that is what they are too them everyone else call's them sir/Ma'am.
Now the second case that some one is called Master/Misstress is if they a Expert in something like rope bondage the whip etc.. But when they are introduced as say Master John he is a expert in the whip. Then everyone should gave him the respect and call Him Master John.

So if your in a club in chat or a D/s M/s setting yes you should give resoect too all Dominate by calling then Sir/Ma'am. They should not tell you too cal them Master or Misstress unless you are there slave.

[suchaminx]

NO way could I call a Dominant Sir just because he was a Dominant!!

I love the confidence of a Dom but that to me goes over the line into arrogance - almost like - 'you will call me Sir because of what I am'

Yes I have respect, but that doesn't have to translate into 'Sir'. My own Dom deserves that title and He gets it - but I am not about to start calling every Dominant Sir.

Does that make me 'bratty' or not a 'proper sub' - I don't think so - just one who knows what is right for her

Sorry, but this really annoys me - ok rant over

minxy

[Euryleia]

I'll echo skp2bear, I was raised that it is a sign of respect to address anyone older and/more experienced than me with a Sir or Ma'am. I remember getting razzed by my agemates because of my ingrained form of address but I don't regret that politeness and courtesy are part of my natural speech.

Titles on the other hand must be earned. I don't call anyone Master or Mistress unless they are mine any more than I call anyone but my girl Pet.

[DowntownAmber]

Another thread where the variety of responses eventually point to the same conclusion: to each his own.

So, for the sake of the overall average, I'll throw in my two cents as well...

No, I don't apply "Sir" or "Ma'am" to anyone in chat or on the Forums as my "default sub setting." I refer to everyone by the moniker they selected until such time as we develop a close enough relationship to warrant the use of a nickname, real name, or title. If the person has selected "SirFillInTheBlankHere" as their Forum name, I don't drop the "Sir" portion in a fit or self-righteous indignation, but it certainly doesn't mean much as it is still just part of a name and not any sort of title beyond that. All I initially know about the person on the other side of my monitor is that they have just enough computer savvy to find and register for a kinky website, and I simply need more information before proceeding with titles and such.

Contrary to how that explanation may sound, however, who I refer to as "Sir" or "Ma'am" ultimately has less to do with the other person than it has to do with my own personality. Me being called "Ma'am" or "pet" or whatever else another chooses to apply to me, also has more to do with that person than with myself, and I respond to it thusly.

Truly, to each his own on this one and I am frankly neither impressed nor insulted with titles until I come to understand the person bestowing them on me or requesting them from me.

[violett]

As for BDSM situations...I have never called anyone in the forum posts or chat "sir". I address everyone respectfully by their name, but often if they have Master/Sir/Dom as part of their screen name I will drop that because I find it presumptuous.

I have to admit to doing exactly the same in chat.

A few on this thread have said it is natural for them to address anyone older or more experienced as sir/maam and that is fine - but in chat how do you know? Just because they have sir or master or dom in their name does not mean they are anything other than a spotty 18 year old newbie who just wants to get a quick thrill. Respect HAS to be earned in some form or other and it takes time to earn that respect.

[ShadePayne]

Yes i agree that "Sir" is over used in chat. Before I can anyone "Sir" it must be earned for so many that are be called "Sir" they are not worthy of the title. For respect is a two way street.

[Orpheus]

I guess it really does come down to, to each his own. I wouldn't expect anyone other than my sub to call me sir. Basically, I see it as a sign of submission and if someone isn't submitting to me I don't see the need for her to call me sir, even if she is a sub in general. But everyone has different tastes. I do agree though that using sir as a default term of address is overdone. I'm glad that doesn't seem to be done here.

[StormKat]

My initial reaction is that "Sir" should be something a sub earns the right to call a dom--not an easy "Yes, I'm submissive," sign.

I'd reverse the phrase above - to me, "sir" is a title the dom earns through his demonstrated behaviors & time spent getting to know him & judge his worth. "Sir" is a term of respect that I certainly wouldn't apply to just anyone, especially not to someone who hasn't earned it in my eyes. And I can count the men to whom I would accord that level of respect on two fingers.

[shayna{L_D}]

to be short, i only call someone Miss, Ma'am, Mistress, Sir and or Master, almost never. I dont even call my significant other Master, or Sir but thats what we came up with and its not out of disrespect. The only one i should be calling sir or master, is him. If we were to EVER break up, i wouldnt run around calling anyone else those titles until they deserve it. Period. I think i echoed everyone with this post.

[damyanti]

Hi guys how is everyone's new year?
This is the protocol I was explained when I first got into the lifestyle in the 70"s lol

Dominates should be call Sir/Ma'am for the respect of being a dominate.

Now the term Master/Mistress is used only in 2 case's first case is the slave call her Dominate Master/Mistress only because that is what they are too them everyone else call's them sir/Ma'am.
Now the second case that some one is called Master/Misstress is if they a Expert in something like rope bondage the whip etc.. But when they are introduced as say Master John he is a expert in the whip. Then everyone should gave him the respect and call Him Master John.

So if your in a club in chat or a D/s M/s setting yes you should give resoect too all Dominate by calling then Sir/Ma'am. They should not tell you too cal them Master or Misstress unless you are there slave.

This is a very good post and it does make sense, but here is where I see a glitch....I am assuming this comes from "Old Guard" philosophy, before Internet, in reference to r/l community where everyone has been through proper initiation and or training and has consented to that and subscribes to that philosophy...so essentially by implication all participants have some kind of "relationship" in regards to each other (even if they had never met before).

BDSM "community" today isn't where it was 5-10 years ago and compared to where it was 30-40 years ago, I believe, is unrecognizable. The Internet changed things, our society in general has become more lax about what it finds appropriate, BDSM has become (if not mainstream) more visible to general public and acceptable to those more open minded....and in response to social changes BDSMers have become less "conservative", more inclusive, open to everyone who wants to experiment, there is no prescribed training or protocols that apply to everyone,....with so many variables to have a set in stone detailed list of protocols is virtually impossible. Sure it has its drawbacks (one of it being it attracts a lot of fakes, trolls...basically a lot of characters who don't understand this, whose intention is to abuse and exploit those who extend them welcome and trust, from get go), but to paraphrase Churchill, it is the worst form of "government" except all the others that have been tried.

[Arria]

The reason I don't go around calling everyone "sir" as a default setting is because to me it has a deeper meaning, just because someone says they are a Dom to me it doesn't make them anything special...I want to see for myself if the gentleman in question is really a dominant person or a pompous ass and or domineering stupid.

I share damyanti´s view on this.

[Soaul]

There are two persons in conversation; therefore, four possible possibilities.

The Dominant may want to be addressed as "Sir" or "Ma'am" because of their general status or NOT be addressed as such because they do NOT have a relationship with that sub/slave.

The sub/slave may want to use "Sir" or "Ma'am" because of their general status (and training) or NOT use it because they have no relationship with the Dom/Master being communicated with.

So, the Dom has preference and so does the sub/slave.

I tell sub/slaves with whom I do not have relationships that they do NOT have to address me as Sir since we do not have that type of relationship but that if they choose to do it for their own reasons, it is OK with me.

We are all happy. So, Sir and Ma'am is NOT overused in my judgment.

[BelovedPet]

There have been some really interesting points here and I tend to agree with Soaul. Even in real life I ask people what they prefer to be called, if I meet a Michael I don't call him Mike without asking first. If you work it out on a person by person basis everyone is happy.

I'm curious what y'all think about calling subs. I would not like it all if anyone other than my Sir called me pet in r/l (here it's part of my handle). Do you feel that there are similar protocols for speaking to subs?

b

[Laila]

Very interesting points - and I have thought about this a lot as well and I think it applies especially to the online world.

In real life (and bear with me here, because I am not a native English speaker) I see very little opportunity of using it. Even my boss wants us to call him by his first name and well, I have not been to school in England so maybe there would be someone to call Sir but I would still think the normal form of respect when you don't know someone is Mr so-and-so or Ms so-and-so.

But when I am with a dominant in real life, I have that natural urge to call him Sir - either he has asked me to address him as such or I would teasingly test the waters... like with the mentioning of 'spanking', 'good girl' etc. its something that can always be thrown into a teasing joke and taken back without any harm done.

Now online - I very rarely, basically never feel the need to call someone Sir because there is no person, no bearing, no aura. I will gladly call a Dominant 'Sir' if he so requests - but even then not always and certainly not always sincerely.

For me - yes a sub has to earn the right to call a man Sir, or at least talk to him a little until it comes from a place of wanting to give this extra bit of respect.
And on the other hand - a Dom for me has to earn this just as much. There are so many random men out there who would like to be called Sir, who have no idea what bdsm is about, who don't have any respect for women and in particular for submissive and feel it is their god given right to be respected as something better.

I call a Master Sir, when that common understanding is reached that we mutually respect each other and wish to interact in a friendly manner, with him as the alpha in the conversation... because I, too, think it can loose some of its meaning.
I also never call a man Master online - well, I used to when I was a lot younger and hadn't figured out how things worked out for me personally, but now Master is reserved only for the real life man I submit to.

[SilverWulf]

There are times when Sir and all the other honorifics do seem to be overused.

Then again, there are times when I've been in chat and have never seen it.

I was raised using Sir/Ma'am as a default when addressing others, not only those older but as a polite way to converse. I still use it regularly in everyday life when I'm talking with people, whether they be police officers, clerks, waitresses, or the check out girl at WalMart.

I was brought into the lifestyle at a time when Sir/Ma'am was the default title for all Dominants and all submissives were expected and required to use these terms. If and when someone had earned the respect of the community the title of Master was given and would be used. Granted, this was well before the days of the internet.

More recently I am of the mindset that I must earn the respect of the submissive before being addressed with any sort of honorific. If a submissive chooses to address me as Sir, so be it, but I do not expect it nor do I demand it. The only submissive allowed to address me as Master is my own girl, as she is the only one who I Master.

[Resist]

Amazing responses. Some of you need to frequent chat more often!

[damyanti]

In most places, except certain parts of US, it is unusual to use such honorifics, so maybe that why it is a bigger deal for some of us.

Also, I am not really comfortable with using the word "earn" as such. I don't think that is fer to dominants. IMO what is required is some recognition between that Dom and sub, having "met" before, friendly kinky acquaintances, friends who are giving a respectful nod to each others roles, or you make a couple...something.
You can be polite to a person you have just met, but can you really respect them as a person? How can you when you don't even know them. Also I think the respect one shows to a store clerk by addressing him as "sir" and that you give to a dominant carry a different meaning and or understanding. Not less in worth, but certainly different.

My reaction to when I see it done in chat...if a sub is throwing "sirs" around to everyone she knows or more often doesn't know I don't take them very seriously because I have the impression they are not interested in a particular Dom as a person, they just want a quick "fast food fix" and all they are interested in is a "role", so they often use "sir" as a one-way competition thing to "out-sub" other subbies.

Occasionally it makes me role my eyes, but that is ok as their communication with anything that isn't labeled male or dom is reduced to bare minimum to none. To each his own, . So in that regard it may even be a useful "signal" (at least in chat), but some doms too find it annoying and a bit awkward/uncomfortable (usually the genuine ones, trolls are always very happy, lol). This is just my impression.

It certainly is a double standard though. How would we react if a dom came to chat and started addressing subs he didn't know (and even those he did) with sub, slave, whore, or even girl...he would probably get banned or at least told off.

When it comes to my own dealings, if he chooses to give me a "label" without so much as a hello=the end. With the rest, it depends on a case by case basis, how we "click" i.e. understand each other and a lot depends on his comportment and what I sense is his agenda...for me there is a big difference between what is acceptable in a first chat and after three months of talking. And in my experience, the best ones wait the "longest" to call you anything other than your name. So what it comes down to is...it is personal (preference).


p.s. Nice thread and a very interesting discussion everyone.

Oh why oh why aren't there any BDSM teenage soap operas......navigating all this would be so much easier, . LOL

[annie]

default setting[/I]. I'm not trying to judge this--I'm simply trying to understand if it genuinely adds to the BDSM experience, or, as I hypothesize, detracts from it. My initial reaction is that "Sir" should be something a sub earns the right to call a dom--not an easy "Yes, I'm submissive," sign.

Thoughts?

Let me preface this by saying I haven't read past this post. For the simple reason the part now in bold/yellow caught my attention.

Not to be difficult... but I think the "earning" of the title goes opposite, in some ways, of how this was presented.

Yes, I am sub, but why should I have to earn the right to call any Larry/Moe/Curly "Sir?" True they don't know me but the flip side of that means I don't know them either. And unlike some I don't use the word Sir (Ma'am, etc.) at random. For me to use it means that it has to come naturally, from the soul, just as the term "Master/Mistress" does. Which means that the dominate person in question has to "earn" my respect as well, it isn't something that is automatically given to everyone just because they have the ability to create an ID and fill in a space saying they are dominate. That doesn't fly with me.

And before I'm jumped on for being "disrespectful" for that train of thought.... There is a difference between polite (using their chosen id to address them) and respect (as stated above.)

Just my 2 cents.

[Stone]

Sir is over used and all the other forms of showing respect it starts to loose all meaning after awhile